You know from our previous episodes that a joint venture is a great way to go after projects you might not normally be able to take on. But how do you find the right joint venture partner? This week we’re breaking down the top ten factors to consider when selecting a joint venture partner.
Considerations we cover in this episode include:
- Financial stability
- Expertise and experience
- Communication and collaboration
- Legal contracts and obligations
- Resources and capabilties
- Cultural fit
- Decision-making and governance
- Project management
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[00:00:00] Rob Williams: Welcome to the Contractor Success Forum. Today we are discussing how to find the right joint venture partner. Here on the Contractor Success Forum, we discuss how to run a more profitable, successful construction business and finding, and even knowing that joint venture partnerships are even a thing when you’re bidding these jobs. I don’t think I realized that was a thing.
So who we have with us Wade carpenter, Carpenter and Company, CPAs, and Stephen Brown, McDaniel-Whitley Bonding, an insurance agency. And I’m Rob Williams, IronGate. Entrepreneurial Support Systems and the Pumpkin Plan for Contractors book.
So, alright guys. This is just something that I wish I knew a lot more, known a lot more about this, the joint ventures for a job. We had partnerships and stuff, but didn’t consider that as much. This is just a huge opportunity. And Stephen, you were talking about the opportunities for us and why this is so important.
[00:01:04] Stephen Brown: Right. There’s more work coming out than ever right now. And it needs to be completed. There’s some good profits to be made. And it may be too much for you and you wanna partner up with someone. Joint ventures are all about partnering up with someone. And I guess it’s so timely that we have this topic, Wade, because it just doesn’t happen overnight.
I read somewhere that on a minimum, it takes 18 months worth of, they call it capture cost. Capture cost is what it costs to build and develop that relationship with the potential joint venture partner. So, you should get started now. So what’s the first thing, Wade?
[00:01:43] Wade Carpenter: Well, before we kinda launch into that, I was also gonna echo what you were saying. We’ve done a couple of podcasts on the joint ventures and I think they’ve probably been one of the more listened to podcasts we’ve done. But, Stephen did a good episode on the federal contracting and the mentor mentee situation, and there are a lot of these coming out.
But I’ve worked with a lot of joint ventures and we kinda like working with them, but not all of them turn out the way we want them to. And not always are the partners compatible. So that’s why we wanted to talk about it, because as Stephen was saying, you probably shouldn’t, just because you know somebody, just go jump in, jump in bed. I don’t know if that’s the right–
[00:02:23] Rob Williams: Yeah.
[00:02:23] Stephen Brown: No.
[00:02:24] Wade Carpenter: You know.
[00:02:25] Stephen Brown: You go listen to another podcast to hear more about more of the pros and cons of starting a joint venture. But in this episode, we’re talking about how to find the right joint venture partner, right?
[00:02:39] Wade Carpenter: Yep.
Compatibility is key
[00:02:40] Rob Williams: I know I’ve had partners in some businesses and they were great when you do it, but you just get down to, I guess this is your first point in the compatibility isn’t it? It’s like the, you get down to the point where, I had a partner one time that if he wasn’t fighting, he didn’t feel like he was working. With his own partner. Not against somebody else. If he didn’t, he just enjoyed fighting. And the friendliest guy in the world, he was the friendliest guy. But business meant fighting about every detail to him. And then it’s wait, we’re supposed to be on the same team over here. Hold on. So.
[00:03:18] Wade Carpenter: Exactly. Exactly. So yeah what we’ve got today, I what I was wanting to go over my top 10 factors when selecting a joint venture partner. And as Rob said, compatibility. It’s one thing if you met somebody at a trade association or whatever, you know them a few years. But how somebody is socially is not necessarily how well they work together. And as Rob said, personalities can be conflicts.
[00:03:44] Stephen Brown: The best one is someone you respect. That makes you compatible. They have certain things that they do better than you. Or they may be a specialist in something on a project that you don’t know anything about. But a lot of the best joint ventures when you’re first getting started to me, and being compatible, is consider talking to a your best friendly competitor about going together.
Someone may have more equipment or more technical experience, or it may just be a big job with a lot of manpower, and together the two of you can get it knocked out quickly and make a better profit. That’s the reason you would go after that, right?
[00:04:24] Wade Carpenter: Well, again, there’s several reasons you could go after a project. Sometimes you have differing expertise, that you said. A lot of times this mentor mentee thing, that’s a way for a lot of smaller contractors to get a leg up and move to the next level.
But number one, you know, the compatibility, if you can’t work together, it’s not gonna work long-term.
[00:04:44] Stephen Brown: Right. And if you are the smaller entity putting together a government joint venture and you want to attract and talk to a larger company about doing joint ventures, the better you can show them that you have all your systems and processes in place, and what you would bring to the partnership, is a key selling point.
[00:05:05] Wade Carpenter: Yeah. We’ll talk about some of those things as we go down the list too. But the next one I really want to talk about was financial stability.
I’ve seen, as I think Stephen was saying, there’s typically a dominant partner and then maybe somebody trying to get a leg up.
But I’ve seen situations where, a smaller contractor may not be that stable and they’re depending on this job to live. And they try to suck all the cash out, and it jeopardizes the ability to get the job done. You ever see that?
[00:05:34] Rob Williams: Yep. I’ve actually seen the opposite, where the big guy, you assume that they’re stable cause they’re really big. I’ve actually, I can think of two ones immediately. And then the big company took all the cash out and left this other guy that was just dependent on the other guy. He just thought size since they’re so big, I’m not gonna ask all these questions.
I remember one that had a problem with one company and then they were the majority of it, and then they took all the money out of the other company and I ended up hiring the other guy, the guy that was the small guy later, but he ended up coming to work for me. Because he was a partner in it, and then they siphoned all the money outta here.
They had control and then put it all in the other company with the losses and never occurred to him that they could do that. And then he was signing everything. So he was left with all the liability on that. And he was like, he was only like 10%. And oh, he was just, he was done.
[00:06:33] Wade Carpenter: Yeah, unfortunately I’ve seen some horror stories too where, one of the partners has the ability to go, you know, usually you’re getting a loan or whatever based on your own credit or whatever. But I’ve seen some contractors be in bad straits and they go and tie in the joint venture, and so the other partners on the hook for a loan that they may have taken all the money out themselves. And so again, financial stability, I guess we could spend a lot of time talking about that, but.
[00:07:03] Stephen Brown: You may wonder why a bonding company might like a joint venture, and they do. That’s just it. It can help you get a larger bonded project by putting a joint venture together. And also there’s so many different documents, Wade, about– well, we’ll talk about legal and contractual considerations later, but there’s so many documents to put together a joint venture properly to protect yourselves.
Expertise and Experience
[00:07:28] Wade Carpenter: Yeah. The third one we already kinda alluded to as well, the expertise and experience. Sometimes there are specialized jobs or, I know I had one where they had people doing work with, like moving the direction of rivers and streams and stuff like that. And apparently you have to have some specialized knowledge on certain things like that.
Or maybe it’s a trade and maybe that’s why you’re getting together. But you know, you’ve gotta be able to know that these people can do what they say they’re gonna do, especially when it’s something you know nothing about.
[00:08:04] Stephen Brown: Right, if it’s a job where the joint venture partners, one of them is one trade and the other one is another trade completely, but those two trades make up the entire part of the project, it might make sense.
[00:08:18] Rob Williams: I do see this, that people thinking they have these skills. And I’ve seen so many people so excited about it cause they think that’s the only thing that matters. That, oh, this is the perfect company. We’re gonna take over the world because we have this and we have that and we’re gonna do this together. And it’s just gonna be amazing.
And it’s across different industries, not just contracting, but you see that. And that’s just one of the many factors and people don’t get past thinking about this one. So this is, the, having those expertise and the skills that go together to form this amazing partnership.
It’s just, I see that over and over again. And they can explode because they never even consider all the other things. They just think the product that they can produce is just so amazing. The service or what they can do with it, or the synergy of the, this guy that nobody can compete with them if those two guys come together.
[00:09:11] Wade Carpenter: Right. Well, I guess moving on to the next one, the reputation. And you wouldn’t think reputation would really be that big of a deal. You’re sometimes just in it for one project, in and done. But actually had a situation several years ago where a very large general contractor that is well known throughout the southeast and I will not bring up, they had a horrible reputation of screwing over subs. And believe it or not, my client was a very large general contractor as well.
They subbed out a wastewater treatment plant. But simply because this larger contractor had such a bad reputation, a lot of the subs that very much valued working with my client, the general contractor, would not work on it because they were afraid they wouldn’t get paid down the line. So the reputation, I would say that’s not really a big deal, but in this case, it was.
[00:10:06] Rob Williams: I had something similar last year. I was talking to somebody and they were gonna actually acquire, I guess you can say the partnership, and then the other guy knew this, I knew the questionable owner, and apparently I didn’t realize he was into a lot of nefarious activities, and the guys are like, oh no, we’re not doing anything if that guy’s involved. We’re not touching it. And a really nice guy, so I was surprised about it. So that reputation can be, yeah, you’re, you’re afraid you’re gonna go to jail. Sometimes it’s not just the subs. Some people might be involved in some crazy things.
[00:10:43] Wade Carpenter: The Memphis Mafia down there?
[00:10:45] Rob Williams: Right. Yeah, exactly.
[00:10:47] Stephen Brown: Hey–
[00:10:48] Rob Williams: You said too much.
[00:10:49] Stephen Brown: Elvis’s gang, they’re getting old. They’re not as scary as they used to be.
[00:10:54] Wade Carpenter: Okay, well it sounds like a thing over there in Memphis. Doesn’t happen in Atlanta.
Communication & Collaboration
[00:10:59] Wade Carpenter: The next one on the list is communication and collaboration. You know, especially when you’re working with somebody that you got two very different pieces of the puzzle, and you gotta get it put together. You’ve gotta be able to work with these people.
And I’ve seen situations where, somebody is very detailed oriented, say on their job costing, and other ones fly by the seat of their pants.
You ever see that?
[00:11:22] Stephen Brown: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, the better you know them, that helps a lot.
[00:11:28] Rob Williams: I had a partner like that one time. He actually had really high margins. He had some patents and stuff, so he had some really high margins. But I was amazed, really successful, making a lot of money. He didn’t keep job cost at all. There was no job cost. And I was just like, whoa. He didn’t really, he had some like general lines and stuff and he wasn’t, it wasn’t a bonding situation, but I was just shocked.
And so our first company that we did together, we had $9 an hour people keeping the books and stuff. It was a mess. It was a real big mess. Books didn’t matter. It was just the bank balance to him. So he didn’t really look at his financials.
And I was shocked because he was such a detailed person. He was, engineering and software was all this. On the construction side, it was so detailed, but not the financial side.
[00:12:15] Stephen Brown: Well, let me throw this out. If you have a joint venture, each party’s gonna designate someone to be the managing venture. That’s usually the owner of the company. Managing venture. So if anybody in your party on that project isn’t getting along, or if you’re not getting along with your other joint venture partner, get it resolved. Collaboration and communication. Talk about it. We say that, don’t we guys? There’s nothing more important than realizing that contractors as a general rule, love talking about their feelings and what’s going on. And in a peaceful setting, in a comfortable, loving, warm environment. Right?
[00:12:59] Rob Williams: I don’t know if our listeners can pick up the sarcasm there. Like–
[00:13:02] Wade Carpenter: He’s gonna pull out a singing kumbaya and.
[00:13:05] Stephen Brown: Hey, look, you know, it doesn’t have to be that. But you know, seriously, you gotta be a collaborative person to even put a joint venture together. So this is a great point, Wade.
[00:13:15] Rob Williams: Yeah. because I had one that I had some of my people working for him, and this guy who’s actually the nice guy that loved to fight, but it got down to when somebody was ready to bill, he said, oh no, they didn’t do a good job on that. We’re not paying them. It’s like, you don’t just not pay them because you don’t like– this, it’s been going on. So it was a tough situation. He’s I’m not paying them for the work that they’ve been doing. So it was ugly.
[00:13:42] Stephen Brown: I can tell you that the best contractors out there, and this is a fact, the best contractors out there know and respect their competition. When they’re slugging it out over a job, it can be a blood bath, but once that’s over, they’re back to being friendly competitors.
[00:13:59] Wade Carpenter: Right.
[00:14:00] Stephen Brown: Anyway.
[00:14:01] Rob Williams: So gotta be collaborative and communicate.
Get clear on legal contracts and obligations
[00:14:04] Wade Carpenter: Well, the next one on the list, I think Stephen already brought up the legal and contracts, obligations and stuff.
[00:14:09] Stephen Brown: Sorry about that. I got excited.
[00:14:10] Wade Carpenter: That’s okay. If you wanna go ahead and talk about it, it’s a big part of this. And having a part partner you can trust, and having a joint venture agreement between the two, you can trust.
[00:14:20] Stephen Brown: There is gonna be a construction attorney in your area, folks, that knows joint ventures. Your CPA can help, your attorney can help. But I can tell you I have a book called Joint Ventures in Construction that has a form for just about every type of scenario. So I can tell you that when I joined up with McDaniel-Whitley, they were my best friends and we decided we were not gonna let our friendship be lost by being in business together.
So we spent six months going over the legal documents. And yes, it’s happened where, we had to bring that document up and remind someone of what we agreed to. We’ve been together for 13 years now. So anyway, the legal documents that protect the joint venture, you want the job to be able to cash flow itself, but the joint venture may need things at certain times. They might need certain resources. And that’s all spelled out in the joint venture agreement.
[00:15:19] Rob Williams: Yeah. I’ve had so many people say, hey, I’ve got an agreement. I went to, what is it, Legal Zoom or, what is it called? The legal document. And they downloaded a contract and then that’s what they’ve got in it. And that was really tough. But it’s–
[00:15:35] Stephen Brown: Well, I understand that lawyers cost money.
[00:15:38] Rob Williams: I remember dad used to say, look, you get these contracts at least so it’s communicated, also. Just so the person, it’s not that even if you’re not gonna sue them, like he and his partner, they were never gonna sue each other and they never sued anybody else.
But they still needed a good contract, even if it was just go back to communicate it. When we did have the lawyers drawn up, it was really important to put all your bullet points down first and then give it to the lawyer because the lawyer is gonna do what he thinks you want and you think the lawyer can read your mind because everybody thinks we’re all alike, and that might not be your situation. So you gotta spend some time in there.
It’s tough when you’re in a small job, that’s where it really gets kind of ugly because there’s not enough money in the project and the overhead to spend a lot of money on an attorney or something. So.
[00:16:29] Stephen Brown: Well, way to go, Mr. Williams. What great advice. He was awesome, Rob. You were blessed to have him. Nobody wants to get involved with a lawsuit. You’re right. And again, it goes back to communication, which is above, I noticed, Wade, you have it listed above the legal section.
[00:16:49] Wade Carpenter: Yeah. Well, I also noticed you’re leading straight into the next one, because you just said the word resources.
Resources & Capabilities
[00:16:55] Wade Carpenter: The next one on the list is resources and capabilities. Sometimes it’s, you’ve got specialized equipment, sometimes you’ve got specialized people on your team that has the knowledge. That’s partly why you’re getting into bed with these people to knock out a project. So.
[00:17:12] Rob Williams: Yeah, that, that’s a huge thing because there are a lot of skilled people that don’t have the financial ability. They don’t have the cash or something. They could really do these jobs and so you can look both directions. If you’ve got some cash, you can find some of those guys to do a joint venture and you don’t have to partner with them.
A joint venture to us, a lot of time was not a formal document. We just said, we’re gonna do a joint venture. That means we’re gonna kinda do something together. And I don’t think we realized that you can formally set up a joint venture without having a whole company, even.
[00:17:49] Wade Carpenter: Yeah, they’re just splitting profits agreements, stuff like that. So yeah.
[00:17:54] Stephen Brown: As you’ve said a couple of times, Wade, you wanna get in bed together. But that doesn’t mean you’re involved in a romantic relationship. You’re just the same bed–
[00:18:03] Wade Carpenter: We’re not–
[00:18:03] Stephen Brown: together. Yeah. Okay.
[00:18:06] Rob Williams: Maybe. Maybe that’s what we shoulda called this. The one project stand.
[00:18:10] Wade Carpenter: Okay. Well, on that note, I’m gonna move on.
[00:18:12] Stephen Brown: That demeans a good joint venture, Rob.
[00:18:15] Rob Williams: Yeah.
[00:18:16] Stephen Brown: I don’t wanna hear that kind of talk. All right, go ahead, Wade.
[00:18:19] Wade Carpenter: I will keep moving here cause I’m not sure where we’re going.
[00:18:22] Wade Carpenter: Cultural fit. We already talked about compatibility, but some people have this laid back attitude that Rob was talking about. And others are like, hey, let’s get it done. Let’s have the cost down to the T. And sometimes, people show up whenever they wanna show up, and other ones are like, hey, we gotta have a detailed schedule. So cultural fit.
[00:18:41] Stephen Brown: Cultural fit.
[00:18:43] Rob Williams: Yep.
[00:18:44] Stephen Brown: I like that. Do your internal controls, do your in-house personnel fit?
[00:18:49] Rob Williams: Well, I think that cultural fit really goes back to the whole, have you defined your value system and what’s more important in a lot of things? That’s probably too deep to talk about too much in here. But that’s where I know in our, the mergers and acquisition company that I deal with, they were saying it, it was an unbelievable number of, I, I can’t remember the exact statistic, but it was like more than 50% of the deals didn’t work out because the value system.
They tried to mold the two people together. People think a good person means something, they’re good people. Oh, they’re good people. Well, their definition of good may be a different thing to raise the decisions that you do. Without getting into that, but make sure you’ve got those values down. Look into a value system on that cultural fit because that’s what kills most of these companies on that. It’s not a lot of these other things.
I remember this, I don’t know if this is a value or not, but I remember saying, would you rather know we had a conversation with a really cost conscious partner of mine that didn’t wanna spend money on anything. It’s that same one, the $9 an hour bookkeeper. But I said, would you rather know your costs and be able to price it correctly? Or would you rather have the cheapest cost?
And for me, it was like, I’d rather know my cost because I’m interested in the difference between my cost and the sales price. I don’t wanna just be guessing it shotgun. But his product was different. So it wasn’t that he was wrong. His product sales, he asked for the most that he could get and he had a huge margin. So his product led him to believe, just keep it low. He wasn’t ever gonna have a loss because he had a huge profit margin, like 80% profit margins, because he had a patent. So he wasn’t that concerned about it.
But anyway, so cultural fit, but that, that also gets into your day-to-day thing. Do you like to fight? Is that part of your culture? Do you like to get along? So, make sure that goes on down and when you’re not just for you and the owner, but your two companies that may be working together.
[00:20:59] Wade Carpenter: Right. Well here you go, Rob. Now you’re leading into the next one.
Decision making and Governance
[00:21:03] Wade Carpenter: We’re talking about decision making and governance. The exact same kind of thing. You gotta understand with a joint venture, somebody’s gotta make decisions. If it’s a 50 50 split or something like that and you don’t spell this out, who’s gonna be making the final decisions on things, we’ve really gotta know that. And somebody that’s used to making that authoritative type decision making, but they’re the minority partner, well, you need to talk about these things upfront before it becomes a problem.
[00:21:31] Stephen Brown: Right. It’s spelled out in your joint venture agreement too, Wade. And again, not only are there owners, but sometimes there’s a committee put together within the joint venture of just working out. I would say arbitrating, that sounds too drastic, but just working through problems.
[00:21:46] Rob Williams: Well, I think making the decisions, what I’ve seen is people have had their one situation in a company, so they think that’s the rules for every company and every agreement. They don’t realize they’re different things. I think the typical situation is, decisions are made on how much money somebody puts it in.
Let’s just say that’s the simplest form. You know, somebody put in 51% of the money. But you may have an ownership agreement and percents, but that may not be how the decisions are made. You could have a contract where the decisions are not based on equity ownership and people don’t realize that’s even a possibility.
It’s defining the way those ownership. Somebody can have, I know like when you’re setting up things for estates and tax things and trusts, sometimes the owner may not want to have much of the equity in there, because he may want it to go to some kids or something like that. But they’ll have total control of the governance even though it’s not their money in there.
So, he who has the gold does not always make the decisions. I think. Well, what’s that thing he has the gold makes the rules? Not always. If your governance documents, if your–
[00:22:55] Stephen Brown: It’s the golden rule. He who has the gold rules. Yeah.
[00:22:59] Rob Williams: Yeah.
[00:22:59] Wade Carpenter: Well, last one here is the project management. In a joint venture, a lot of times you gotta remember this is not two separate companies. This is two or more partners coming together to get a job done. And you gotta look and see how we are putting the projects together.
So a lot of times you’re putting a schedule of values together, your pay apps together, because you got different pieces of it. So, as we said with the management style, people manage projects very differently. Any thoughts on that?
[00:23:30] Stephen Brown: I think it goes back to the cultural fit there.
[00:23:33] Wade Carpenter: Yep.
[00:23:33] Rob Williams: It’s a huge thing. I don’t think people do realize that projects are managed differently. Just like I was saying with some people, it’s all about the document and then you put all the responsibility– say commercial, there’s a whole lot more responsibility on the subcontractors. There’s usually more contract in there where the residential of those guys, if the subcontractor makes a mistake, the builder tends to take more of that responsibility and fix it. Those kind of things have control over it, and they’ll manage the details of showing that heat and air guy how to put it and where to put it.
When you get in the commercial stuff, you know, it’s like, hey, this is yours. There’s specs. You go out there, you do that. So there’s two different things. Some contractors really control the whole quality day-to-day of the job. I was framing for a contractor one time that wouldn’t buy blueprints. I don’t know how the heck, and we were doing panels and truss so we drove, but he was building the houses off of a brochure that he got out of somebody else’s model home and he had whited out the name of the other company and written his name of his company on there, and he actually built the house out of that little piece of paper.
[00:24:45] Stephen Brown: Is the house still standing?
[00:24:47] Rob Williams: There are a ton of them. It’s a whole community. These are hundreds of houses. It was a big project. I’m not saying they were bad houses because their management, they had to be on every one of those houses, every little detail. Because there were no job specs. I mean it was just the old fashioned, you’re practically out there building the houses with your hands.
As opposed to the extreme. I’ll go back, like the university housing that I was doing, those dormitories, it was just extremely, they were not going to mess with you because you were liable for everything as the subcontractor. And it was just about that piece of paper. But anyway, that was a big project management.
[00:25:24] Wade Carpenter: Yep.
[00:25:25] Stephen Brown: Project management issues? Yes.
[00:25:27] Wade Carpenter: Yeah. Well again, I see project managers, even in the same company, estimators in the same company, they a lot of times do things different between project managers and estimators. And, and making sure they’re compatible between two different companies is another level.
But I think we hit our top 10. Believe it or not, I’ve got 20 more factors that maybe you should consider when you’re thinking about getting your joint venture partners I put in a checklist because this is a big deal. I keep using the term, getting in bed with somebody, but you are, even if it’s just for one project. But maybe you’re looking for a longer term relationship. And that can be a big stepping stone for some people.
[00:26:08] Stephen Brown: You could also get on the website ContractorMatch.com. It’s good. And then there’s joint venture yentas that put the right people to– no, I’m making that up. That doesn’t exist. You gotta do it on your own, guys. Look at this checklist. Give these things some consideration because they’re all hugely important to your joint venture.
[00:26:28] Rob Williams: Yep. And so don’t forget, it’s so exciting when you talk about these joint ventures and coming together. People get so excited about how they can do the job. So don’t forget about all this part, because it could be a huge opportunity, but it could be also a huge hole that you’re stepping into if you get into the wrong thing, no matter how good the physical job situation is that you’re doing or whatever you’re providing. If you don’t have these other things, it can be a perfect job, but it’s not gonna work. you’re gonna, it’s gonna be a mess.
[00:27:02] Stephen Brown: Guys, another fact that I read last week– fact, because I read it on the internet, you know it’s true. 37% of all the construction work for the Army, of new work, was issued to joint ventures. So there we go.
[00:27:18] Wade Carpenter: Well, to wrap this up, I think like I said, I wanted to offer that checklist of 30 items you may want to consider in finding a joint venture partner. As well as the, we created another one, it’s 50 items that you may want to consider in forming your joint venture agreement. So they can go to our website at CarpenterCPAs.com and the Joint Venture page and get that for free if they’re interested.
[00:27:41] Stephen Brown: Fantastic.
[00:27:42] Rob Williams: Go to our page and there’ll be a way to get to it, if you go to Contractor Success Forum dot com or go to– what is it again? Your website?
[00:27:51] Wade Carpenter: CarpenterCPAs.com.
[00:27:51] Stephen Brown: Fantastic.
[00:27:52] Rob Williams: All right. Well, thanks for coming to the Contractor Success Forum today. Tune in to YouTube and subscribe for us. Go ahead and hit the subscribe. That helps more people see that. I know you probably wanna keep this valuable information just for yourself.
[00:28:07] Stephen Brown: Just hoard it. Savor it.
[00:28:09] Rob Williams: And let everybody share the wealth here.
So, have that and then download the podcasts and we will be back with you for the next episode of the Contractor Success Forum.
[00:28:20] Stephen Brown: All about collaboration.
[00:28:22] Rob Williams: There you go.